Learning/Teaching - Leads/Follows

[Zoopsia59]

Originally Posted by mkjohnson

(omg Zoopsia, are we living in the same city?)

Only if I slept thorough some major seismic event and Texas is now on the East coast!

[niceweekend111]

I like dance Tango style

[Angel HI]

I try to allot equal time to both partners, b/c ladies need attention to detail as much as guys. The myth that ladies learn quicker than guys is exactly that. Sometimes they do; often, they don't. The reason I believe that leads sometimes get more attention than follows is b/c if the lead is incorrect, the follow's job is just that much more difficult.

[newbie]

Originally Posted by niceweekend111

I like dance Tango style

Hello niceweekend111. Welcome onboard.

[Peaches]

Originally Posted by Zoopsia59

This certainly has been my experience and that of my friends. Its why I originally wanted to work with followers... in conversations, I found that they felt that they weren't getting any good instruction in the classes, and I saw for myself that some were making very elementary mistakes in classes that the teachers ignored because they were too busy correcting the leader's steps to complete the sequence.

It seems the pattern goes like this...

Beginner/ advanced beginner classes: too many women, not enough feedback given to the women.

Some women stop coming to class (this may be why some people think that the women are not interested in improving... from what I can tell, they just aren't interested in spending money on someone else's improvement!)

Intermediate class... too many men. Still not much feedback for the followers. The women who decided to come as leaders because there were never enough leaders (and they got tired of sitting out waiting for a leader in the rotation) are now pressured into following because there aren't enough followers.

So they STILL aren't getting what they paid for. Even when they do lead, the teachers often figure they are just doing it to kill time and don't give them any feedback as leaders either! I actually had a teacher approach me once while I was leading and ask "You're really a follower right?" and then proceed to ignore me for the rest of the class! I guess the instructor figured there was no point in working on my lead since I was "really" a follower.

And there's the added problem of leaders taking classes they aren't ready for, so that the followers have to dance with leaders who might hurt them. Then after an hour or more of being led badly, the teacher finally notices her, and the follower gets correction on something she normally doesn't screw up because she's got a sore back or something. Now she's thinking... "great... I finally got the teacher's attention, and all the feedback was on something I already KNOW I'm messing up!"

(not that this has ever happened to me )

Sometimes the teacher pairs a better follower with a struggling leader to help the leader along (we all know that learning to lead with a follower who can't follow is pretty hard right?) That's great for the leader, but the follower is paying for the class too and would like to get something in exchange for her hard earned bucks besides the joy of helping a leader who shouldn't have been in the class in the first place. I know more than one good follower who has dropped out of a class because the teacher always asked her to dance with the slow learning leader, and then ignored her.

Now even MORE women stop coming to class giving rise to even more of the theory that followers don't think they need to improve. What's REALLY happening is that followers have figured out that the opportunities available to them are NOT improving them.

OMG. Completely and totally spot on. And why I generally don't bother with taking classes; I stopped in favor of private lessons a long time ago and have never regretted it. Now and again I'll do a workshop class if I'm really interested in the topic or the teacher, but not usually.

[Peaches]

Originally Posted by tangonuevo

the follows, having been so much better than the leads for so long, appear to me to be convinced that they don't really need to advance their technique.

Originally Posted by Zoo

I don't know a single follower who thinks she doesn't need to advance any further. Not ONE.

See, and I have run across various women who think they're fantastic and gods gift to leaders, and...wow...so not.

OTOH, I can definitely see a bit of what tangonuevo is thinking, if it's tweaked a bit. Followers may decide they don't really need to advance their technique to dance with the guys around them in their scene. Or maybe that's just me. All I know is, I've spent years and a ton of $$$ getting better, while so many of the guys get to decent and then stop, seemingly convinced that because they can shuffle around the floor and can find the beat that they can dance AT well enough and don't need any more. After a while, I find myself wondering why I should even bother to further my own technique, because it's not like I really get a chance to use it, it's not like half the guys would notice one way or the other. I mastered aimless shuffling whilst standing in front of a guy pretty early on, thanks.

[bastet]

Originally Posted by Zoopsia59

This certainly has been my experience and that of my friends. Its why I originally wanted to work with followers... in conversations, I found that they felt that they weren't getting any good instruction in the classes, and I saw for myself that some were making very elementary mistakes in classes that the teachers ignored because they were too busy correcting the leader's steps to complete the sequence.

It seems the pattern goes like this...

Beginner/ advanced beginner classes: too many women, not enough feedback given to the women.

Some women stop coming to class (this may be why some people think that the women are not interested in improving... from what I can tell, they just aren't interested in spending money on someone else's improvement!)

Intermediate class... too many men. Still not much feedback for the followers. The women who decided to come as leaders because there were never enough leaders (and they got tired of sitting out waiting for a leader in the rotation) are now pressured into following because there aren't enough followers.

So they STILL aren't getting what they paid for. Even when they do lead, the teachers often figure they are just doing it to kill time and don't give them any feedback as leaders either! I actually had a teacher approach me once while I was leading and ask "You're really a follower right?" and then proceed to ignore me for the rest of the class! I guess the instructor figured there was no point in working on my lead since I was "really" a follower.

And there's the added problem of leaders taking classes they aren't ready for, so that the followers have to dance with leaders who might hurt them. Then after an hour or more of being led badly, the teacher finally notices her, and the follower gets correction on something she normally doesn't screw up because she's got a sore back or something. Now she's thinking... "great... I finally got the teacher's attention, and all the feedback was on something I already KNOW I'm messing up!"

(not that this has ever happened to me )

Sometimes the teacher pairs a better follower with a struggling leader to help the leader along (we all know that learning to lead with a follower who can't follow is pretty hard right?) That's great for the leader, but the follower is paying for the class too and would like to get something in exchange for her hard earned bucks besides the joy of helping a leader who shouldn't have been in the class in the first place. I know more than one good follower who has dropped out of a class because the teacher always asked her to dance with the slow learning leader, and then ignored her.

Now even MORE women stop coming to class giving rise to even more of the theory that followers don't think they need to improve. What's REALLY happening is that followers have figured out that the opportunities available to them are NOT improving them.

Oh dear- you just described the classes I took at the last tango festival I attended a year ago this month in fact. There were some classes I took where the guys couldn't even lead weight changes. Granted- it was an "all level" class on dynamics, but there was actually interesting information in it I wanted to work on and couldn't, unless I only dance with the person I came with. (Should have done that.)

[bastet]

Originally Posted by Peaches

See, and I have run across various women who think they're fantastic and gods gift to leaders, and...wow...so not.

OTOH, I can definitely see a bit of what tangonuevo is thinking, if it's tweaked a bit. Followers may decide they don't really need to advance their technique to dance with the guys around them in their scene. Or maybe that's just me. All I know is, I've spent years and a ton of $$$ getting better, while so many of the guys get to decent and then stop, seemingly convinced that because they can shuffle around the floor and can find the beat that they can dance AT well enough and don't need any more. After a while, I find myself wondering why I should even bother to further my own technique, because it's not like I really get a chance to use it, it's not like half the guys would notice one way or the other. I mastered aimless shuffling whilst standing in front of a guy pretty early on, thanks.

well- I won't say I haven't had similar feelings to this, because I do, and the one of the few people with whom I dance who is a good leader is nit-picky about technique to the point where it can become unenjoyable. So many times I feel stuck, quite literally, between a rock and a hard place....knowing enough that I feel like I can't use it with a lot of leaders, but never good enough for the one I can use it with often.

[Peaches]

Originally Posted by bastet

well- I won't say I haven't had similar feelings to this, because I do, and the one of the few people with whom I dance who is a good leader is nit-picky about technique to the point where it can become unenjoyable. So many times I feel stuck, quite literally, between a rock and a hard place....knowing enough that I feel like I can't use it with a lot of leaders, but never good enough for the one I can use it with often.

Are we twins separated at birth or something?

Yup, rock and a hard place. Don't get to use it most of the time, but can't break into the top ranks either. Getting a bit bored with one set, and tired of trying with the other set.

I wish I could just go back to private lessons, where I can use what I've learned, work on me, and dance with a good and creative leader. Alas, the financial situation being what it is...

[bordertangoman]

Originally Posted by Peaches

OTOH, I can definitely see a bit of what tangonuevo is thinking, if it's tweaked a bit. Followers may decide they don't really need to advance their technique to dance with the guys around them in their scene. Or maybe that's just me. All I know is, I've spent years and a ton of $$$ getting better, while so many of the guys get to decent and then stop, seemingly convinced that because they can shuffle around the floor and can find the beat that they can dance AT well enough and don't need any more. After a while, I find myself wondering why I should even bother to further my own technique, because it's not like I really get a chance to use it, it's not like half the guys would notice one way or the other. I mastered aimless shuffling whilst standing in front of a guy pretty early on, thanks.

your sentence was a bit too long for me to comprehend fully. i would say its pretty much the same round here; I guess the cause is just good timers who can get away with modern jive looseness and arent prepared to take their dancing a bit further, but would I love to do an aimless shuffle with you, maybe to Cuervo de Poe's 'Paradas Blancas'